Mitsubishi Eclipse Forums - View Single Post - FINALLY, Ignition advance with the FIC revealed!!!

BrianJ · November 2nd, 2008, 06:51 PM

Ok guys, I've been asked MANY times about the ignition advance stuff I've mentioned before...I've been waiting for MikeW to send me some more information on his testing, but I'm sure he's been busy getting redy for SEMA...SOOOO, I'll get started on this and maybe he'll be able to chime in soon.

Ok...first off...people hve been asking "How much is it going to be for the timing control?" The answer is...it's FREE. I've personally spent ALOT of time on this, and I know Mike did as well, but together we decided to just give out the information for all to share...consider it an early Christmas present from BilletProof Racing and RRE! Just make sure to look us up first on your next purchase!

Ok...let's get started. If you already have the FIC and my harness, then you already have everything you're going to need for the ignition advance. You WILL NEED my harness for this as it has circuitry built into it to allow the MAF sensor to operate properly with the FIC. If you don't have the harness, the MAF sensor will not interface with the FIC. Something else you will want to get if you don't already have one is a CAN based OBD2 reader...you're going to want this to show you EXACTLY how much advance you are getting, as well as to read and clear any codes you might get along the way. I use the DashDAQ cause it does so much, but there are other less expensive ones that you could use as well.

The Eclipse uses the MAF sensor and NOT the MAP sensor as it's primary load sensor. I know it's kind of odd, but that's the way it is. You can change timing simply by changing the MAF signal to the ECU. However, you are going to want to change the MAP sensor as well...Mike was able to get about 10 more HP by using BOTH. The information I was wating for from Mike was a picture of the actual map he used in testing, but I haven't seen it yet...maybe he can chime in with that. Until then, I'll tell you what I figured out on my own and show you a few examples.

***NOTE*** The ECU pin that you will intercept for the MAP sensor is Pin 102 (Blue/red)...check the ECU connector pinout I included with the harness for the location of Pin 102.

I tried EVERYTHING on this car to move timing. I tried messing with IAT, ECT, MAP, etc. the MAF was the last thing I tried (always seems to work that way!)...but the MAF it was! Now, before I get too far, I will agree with all the haters and say that changing the MAF and MAP signals isn't the best way to get the job done. The best way would be to use a standalone that has full control over the timing maps. But since that's a very expensive venture, this way will have to do for now. Some will say, "well isn't this the same thing as something like a NEO that changes the MAF for fuel tuning?" The answer is, NO! Although some other units do manipulate the MAF signal, the difference is that they do it as a PRIMARY source of changing fueling...we don't. Our goal is to manipulate timing, and although this will cause some fueling changes by the ECU, we still have our primary fueling maps changing the injectors directly. Big difference. We can still have independent timing and fueling control.

SO, how is it done??? Ok, a passthru map for the MAF sensor would look something like this...

Now, if you look at this map you will see that no matter what RPM you are at, the MAF signal going out of the FIC is the same (or very close to the same) as what is coming in. This is what we call a passthru map. It doesn't really change anything, so the ECU would basically see what it would've seen without the FIC installed. NOW, the way to get ignition advance is to "pull" some voltage from the MAF sensor, which will send a slightly lower voltage level to the ECU so the ECU will think that there isn't such a high load...the more load you have (high MAF numbers) the less ignition advance you have and vise-versa. Now, there is a limit to this...you can't just pull a whole bunch of voltage and expect it to just keep advancing the timing...it won't. You also have to be careful how much you pull from where as well...this ECU is extremely picky. But here's the good news...with this high-tech ECU we have it's near impossible to actually damage anything. If you pull too much from the MAF the car just won't run right, or it may not run at all...but it won't really hurt anything, just re-adjust the number and you're back to where you started. Some of the lower number are EXTREMELY sensitive to small changes as well. For example, while testing I was watching my DashDAQ and I was just cruising on the highway and it showed 29 degrees of timing...I changed the voltage in that cell from 2.88 to 2.86 and the ignition advance immediately jumped to 30. I pulled another .02v down to 2.84 and it went to 31 degrees. I couldn't believe it was that sensitive, so I adjusted back to 2.88 in one changed and sure enough it went right back to 29 degrees. So, in some cells and at some throttle openings these voltages are very sensitive and can make a big difference. You will need bigger changes as you go higher in the RPM's in order to get more timing, so the changes need to be increased as you go up...

For example, look at this map below.....

Now, notice that I left the bottom of the map alone...so the MAF signal is basically stock until higher load values...I started making changes at 3.12v on the left scale...notice I pulled .06v and put a 3.06v value all the way across the RPM range. Now, the next row up is the 3.44v row, notice I pulled .15v down to 3.29v, then the next row was 3.75v and I pulled .25v down to 3.5v and so on...this is what I meant when I said you will have to pull more voltage as the input increases. Now, these numbers aren't exact, and you may have different results, but this is the IDEA. You may need to change more or less for a given situation, but you will end up with a similar pattern.

While this would be best done on a dyno, you can do it on the street. That's what I did and I used the DashDAQ to monitor the ignition advance while we changed the voltages. One thing you can to to get better control of the timing is to re-scale the left scale. Instead of equal increments over the 0-5v range, you could do something like the following...

Notice that the first three rows go 0, 1, 1.7...the reason I picked 1.7 is because this is about the voltage the ECU sees at idle on a GT. It's important to have this value be accurate otherwise the car won't start. If you mess with it that low, you'll find that the ECU won't like it much...it's very picky. Now, also notice that by rescaling the map from 1.7 to 5 we've got more rows up top to work with which gives us more control and better resolution. You can rescale these maps however you want...if you find you don't use an area but it's taking up 5 cells then shrink those 5 cells to 2 and rescale the three you free up to get better control in another area. Keep in mind that the FIC will interpolate between cells, but you will always have more control the closer the cells are to each other (or the more cells you have to work with over a given range.) For example, if you find that you aren't making any ignition changes below the 3v range, then you might want to do 0, 1, 1.7, 2.4, 3...and then rescale from 3-5v...that would give you 13 rows between 3-5v which would give you much better resolution. Again, keep in mind, these are just suggestions, concepts to follow...your numbers may be more or less.

Now, this same concept will be used with the MAP sensor map as well. You'll want to hook the MAP sensor line to one of the unused channels on the FIC...A or B, it doesn't matter. You could just do the MAF line, however, you won't get as good of gains that way. This is the info I was looking for from Mike on the dyno...this was verified during his testing and it was definitely better to change them both. Also, he mentioned if you go too far you will start to lose power...I verified this on the MAF line as well. Keep in mind...it's really hard to hurt anything...if you pull too much voltage and it starts to knock, the ECU knock circuit will see this and pull timing as a safety measure. Just try some different things and watch the DashDAQ (or other scantool) and you'll be fine.

If anyone is thinking of getting a DashDAQ, let me know as I'm a dealer for them. Also, they are rolling out some SICK stuff at SEMA in two days. I've got it here, but I can't release any info till SEMA. Also, I've been working with them on getting some Mitsubishi specific PID's setup on the DashDAQ...this should allow us to see knock/knock retard and other things that no other scantools currently provide. I'll keep you posted on this as we go this week, I'm going to talk with them in person at SEMA and see what the timeframe is.

Well, I guess that's about it for now...I'm sure there will be some questions so, throw em' out there.

Brian

November 2nd, 2008, 06:51 PM	#1 (permalink)
BrianJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Vehicle: 06 Eclipse GT Posts: 1,649 Rep Power: 5	FINALLY, Ignition advance with the FIC revealed!!! Ok guys, I've been asked MANY times about the ignition advance stuff I've mentioned before...I've been waiting for MikeW to send me some more information on his testing, but I'm sure he's been busy getting redy for SEMA...SOOOO, I'll get started on this and maybe he'll be able to chime in soon. Ok...first off...people hve been asking "How much is it going to be for the timing control?" The answer is...it's FREE. I've personally spent ALOT of time on this, and I know Mike did as well, but together we decided to just give out the information for all to share...consider it an early Christmas present from BilletProof Racing and RRE! Just make sure to look us up first on your next purchase! Ok...let's get started. If you already have the FIC and my harness, then you already have everything you're going to need for the ignition advance. You WILL NEED my harness for this as it has circuitry built into it to allow the MAF sensor to operate properly with the FIC. If you don't have the harness, the MAF sensor will not interface with the FIC. Something else you will want to get if you don't already have one is a CAN based OBD2 reader...you're going to want this to show you EXACTLY how much advance you are getting, as well as to read and clear any codes you might get along the way. I use the DashDAQ cause it does so much, but there are other less expensive ones that you could use as well. The Eclipse uses the MAF sensor and NOT the MAP sensor as it's primary load sensor. I know it's kind of odd, but that's the way it is. You can change timing simply by changing the MAF signal to the ECU. However, you are going to want to change the MAP sensor as well...Mike was able to get about 10 more HP by using BOTH. The information I was wating for from Mike was a picture of the actual map he used in testing, but I haven't seen it yet...maybe he can chime in with that. Until then, I'll tell you what I figured out on my own and show you a few examples. *NOTE* The ECU pin that you will intercept for the MAP sensor is Pin 102 (Blue/red)...check the ECU connector pinout I included with the harness for the location of Pin 102. I tried EVERYTHING on this car to move timing. I tried messing with IAT, ECT, MAP, etc. the MAF was the last thing I tried (always seems to work that way!)...but the MAF it was! Now, before I get too far, I will agree with all the haters and say that changing the MAF and MAP signals isn't the best way to get the job done. The best way would be to use a standalone that has full control over the timing maps. But since that's a very expensive venture, this way will have to do for now. Some will say, "well isn't this the same thing as something like a NEO that changes the MAF for fuel tuning?" The answer is, NO! Although some other units do manipulate the MAF signal, the difference is that they do it as a PRIMARY source of changing fueling...we don't. Our goal is to manipulate timing, and although this will cause some fueling changes by the ECU, we still have our primary fueling maps changing the injectors directly. Big difference. We can still have independent timing and fueling control. SO, how is it done??? Ok, a passthru map for the MAF sensor would look something like this... Now, if you look at this map you will see that no matter what RPM you are at, the MAF signal going out of the FIC is the same (or very close to the same) as what is coming in. This is what we call a passthru map. It doesn't really change anything, so the ECU would basically see what it would've seen without the FIC installed. NOW, the way to get ignition advance is to "pull" some voltage from the MAF sensor, which will send a slightly lower voltage level to the ECU so the ECU will think that there isn't such a high load...the more load you have (high MAF numbers) the less ignition advance you have and vise-versa. Now, there is a limit to this...you can't just pull a whole bunch of voltage and expect it to just keep advancing the timing...it won't. You also have to be careful how much you pull from where as well...this ECU is extremely picky. But here's the good news...with this high-tech ECU we have it's near impossible to actually damage anything. If you pull too much from the MAF the car just won't run right, or it may not run at all...but it won't really hurt anything, just re-adjust the number and you're back to where you started. Some of the lower number are EXTREMELY sensitive to small changes as well. For example, while testing I was watching my DashDAQ and I was just cruising on the highway and it showed 29 degrees of timing...I changed the voltage in that cell from 2.88 to 2.86 and the ignition advance immediately jumped to 30. I pulled another .02v down to 2.84 and it went to 31 degrees. I couldn't believe it was that sensitive, so I adjusted back to 2.88 in one changed and sure enough it went right back to 29 degrees. So, in some cells and at some throttle openings these voltages are very sensitive and can make a big difference. You will need bigger changes as you go higher in the RPM's in order to get more timing, so the changes need to be increased as you go up... For example, look at this map below..... Now, notice that I left the bottom of the map alone...so the MAF signal is basically stock until higher load values...I started making changes at 3.12v on the left scale...notice I pulled .06v and put a 3.06v value all the way across the RPM range. Now, the next row up is the 3.44v row, notice I pulled .15v down to 3.29v, then the next row was 3.75v and I pulled .25v down to 3.5v and so on...this is what I meant when I said you will have to pull more voltage as the input increases. Now, these numbers aren't exact, and you may have different results, but this is the IDEA. You may need to change more or less for a given situation, but you will end up with a similar pattern. While this would be best done on a dyno, you can do it on the street. That's what I did and I used the DashDAQ to monitor the ignition advance while we changed the voltages. One thing you can to to get better control of the timing is to re-scale the left scale. Instead of equal increments over the 0-5v range, you could do something like the following... Notice that the first three rows go 0, 1, 1.7...the reason I picked 1.7 is because this is about the voltage the ECU sees at idle on a GT. It's important to have this value be accurate otherwise the car won't start. If you mess with it that low, you'll find that the ECU won't like it much...it's very picky. Now, also notice that by rescaling the map from 1.7 to 5 we've got more rows up top to work with which gives us more control and better resolution. You can rescale these maps however you want...if you find you don't use an area but it's taking up 5 cells then shrink those 5 cells to 2 and rescale the three you free up to get better control in another area. Keep in mind that the FIC will interpolate between cells, but you will always have more control the closer the cells are to each other (or the more cells you have to work with over a given range.) For example, if you find that you aren't making any ignition changes below the 3v range, then you might want to do 0, 1, 1.7, 2.4, 3...and then rescale from 3-5v...that would give you 13 rows between 3-5v which would give you much better resolution. Again, keep in mind, these are just suggestions, concepts to follow...your numbers may be more or less. Now, this same concept will be used with the MAP sensor map as well. You'll want to hook the MAP sensor line to one of the unused channels on the FIC...A or B, it doesn't matter. You could just do the MAF line, however, you won't get as good of gains that way. This is the info I was looking for from Mike on the dyno...this was verified during his testing and it was definitely better to change them both. Also, he mentioned if you go too far you will start to lose power...I verified this on the MAF line as well. Keep in mind...it's really hard to hurt anything...if you pull too much voltage and it starts to knock, the ECU knock circuit will see this and pull timing as a safety measure. Just try some different things and watch the DashDAQ (or other scantool) and you'll be fine. If anyone is thinking of getting a DashDAQ, let me know as I'm a dealer for them. Also, they are rolling out some SICK stuff at SEMA in two days. I've got it here, but I can't release any info till SEMA. Also, I've been working with them on getting some Mitsubishi specific PID's setup on the DashDAQ...this should allow us to see knock/knock retard and other things that no other scantools currently provide. I'll keep you posted on this as we go this week, I'm going to talk with them in person at SEMA and see what the timeframe is. Well, I guess that's about it for now...I'm sure there will be some questions so, throw em' out there. Brian Last edited by BrianJ; March 26th, 2009 at 02:03 PM.