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Old October 16th, 2008, 04:20 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Mmmm... if I'm calculating this correctly, I'm getting 544.1 max HP from your max lift of .7 at 28" depression.


NOOOICE!
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Old October 16th, 2008, 04:21 PM   #42 (permalink)
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by what numbers though? stock stroke and bore with ambient compression?
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Old October 16th, 2008, 04:22 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Hold on, carl... still need to source for crank work, buddy

Gotta do some more math...
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Old October 16th, 2008, 04:24 PM   #44 (permalink)
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by what numbers though? stock stroke and bore with ambient compression?
Not necessarily and yes, respectively. I know I'm just calculating benchracing figures, but I'm talking maximum power potential of the whole engine given max available headflow. It'll be a matter of displacement that enables that max power, hence the comment on crank work.
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Old October 16th, 2008, 04:25 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Well, I am more curious what the max HP:CFMs would be for a stock block and crank at stock compression.
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Old October 16th, 2008, 04:26 PM   #46 (permalink)
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i know that none of us unboosted are even close to maxing the heads out.
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Old October 16th, 2008, 05:50 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Sorry... got distracted trying to catch up on my engine tech. It's been a while, and being that I'm an IT analyst and not an engine builder...

Actually, did you know that the stock engine's max potential airflow (at 233.6 cid) is 304 CFM at sea level? I'm a little rusty, and I seem to have misplaced my engine book (thanks Ross ) ... so I think I might be confusing my formulas based on the numbers provided by Hobbes Perf.

In my earlier ramblings, an overbored 4.5L 6G75 block (274.6 cid), theoretically possible via a remachined OEM (stroker) crankshaft can flow 357 sCFM.

Given that my calculations are correct, if the Hobbes ported head flows 352.6 sCFM then we're close to creating that realistic number of 544HP. Specifically, if we somehow got to push out 357 CFM out of the heads to match the block's max capacity, we'd be making 550.79hp out of a 4.5L block!

Perhaps Dennis can speak to the feasibility of my estimations.
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Old October 16th, 2008, 05:56 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Old October 16th, 2008, 06:03 PM   #49 (permalink)
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i know that none of us unboosted are even close to maxing the heads out.
Max hp for stock heads (flowing at 272.7 sCFM) is 420.73 hp As I mentioned above, max airflow attainable through the stock block is 304 CFM at sea level. That puts the max hp potential at 469 hp at 100%VE (naturally aspirated).

So the issue isn't so much that we don't already have good enough displacement with the stock engine. (Though you'll likely want to go overbore with new pistons anyway as a matter of best practices, right?) It's aptly addressed by better head flow to match your race block. My whim of a 4.5L block are just to try to get the max out of the engine using a remachined OE crank.

You obviously can make higher numbers with boost, increasing VE to over 100%... obviously. Besides, my question to Dennis about larger valves... say, +2 over... is obviously not intended to be for building an N/A race engine. That would just be stupid, and I'd just lose power that way.

If I'm going to build, I'm going to build for FI
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Old October 16th, 2008, 06:09 PM   #50 (permalink)
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see, im almost to the point when i just want rwd before i do anything silly. so i think that i would stay NA if i cant figure out a budget TT kit.

but yeah, without even introducing cams, we are potenially looking at +-400whp NA....
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Old October 16th, 2008, 06:10 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Remember guys, porting is and art and a balance of not only flow but velocity as well. Hobbs has a very proven reputation in the 3s world and there are currently well over a dozen 3000gt vr4's in the 800-1100 awhp range with hobbs work. According to Hobb's these heads out flow the DOHC's by quite a bit especiually at low lift..I can't wait to se the true potential of these MIVEC ported heads..
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Old October 16th, 2008, 07:05 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Yeah, I was wondering if Dennis would give us a brief assessment of the design of the stock heads... port angles, volume, adequacy of factory cam profiles to acceptable street performance with the remachined ports.

I'd like to know to what extent the work had to be done, if, for your specific application, they had to reshape the port walls any, or perhaps add. Of particular concern to me is the meat that can be shaved off to produce the most optimum air mass possible, as we both are in fact looking at an FI solution.

It does change the playing field completely after all. N/A builders would consider the velocity factor a much more crucial one than we. For us, that's partly addressed with proper turbo selection and pipe design.




Carl: I hope I'm not too selfish for wanting this thread to be stickied
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Old October 16th, 2008, 07:36 PM   #53 (permalink)
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This thread just shot up to my #2 favorite instantly, second only to the dirty girlfriend thread. That build is fucking nasty, and if its as solid on the inside as it looks on the outside, the 4G eclipse will soon be able to put down saliva inducing, clutch toasting, stock gearbox SHREDDING power. The day this car starts will be quite interesting.
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Old October 16th, 2008, 07:52 PM   #54 (permalink)
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It's making me hot myself for a BooSty Call...
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Old October 16th, 2008, 08:23 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Things are looking tight on the firewall side..........fuck it, be a man and run the turbo's sticking straight out the hood hahaha. Oh man.

The money involved when this is all said and done, OEM value of the car included will probly run into the 45-50 thousand dollar range. Sometimes you gota ask yourself, is the juice worth the squeeze?
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Old October 17th, 2008, 01:57 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Rico

Notice where the engine mount is bolted to...I believe the turbos are going to be where the intake sits now!
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Old October 17th, 2008, 02:56 AM   #57 (permalink)
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If on the 3si, yes the turbos are going to be situated where the battery is, but on the 4G it's going to be right next to the ABS pump/valve unit, so it it's going to be a tight squeeze. This piping design won't work for the 4G (or Galant), as our trannies are located on the driver side of the compartment.

Those who've had the fortunate ( ) experience of messing with exhaust manifolds and aftermarket headers will know that a twin setup will involve a long pipe run from bank 1 collectors to the rear turbo, or, be hidden behind the block. Still it's going to be one tight squeeze.

Personally, I wish there could be a way for the turbine flange could be situated a short run from the exhaust ports.
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Old October 17th, 2008, 05:16 AM   #58 (permalink)
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how about 6 little bitty turbos with almost no piping. just a 3 inch straight pipe off the exhaust port into the turbo...

haha okay no. but dude, we have wayyyy more room than the 3s does. thats the first thing matt and everyone said down at 3sx when i first got the car. if i would have stayed in NC mine would already have been done.
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Old October 17th, 2008, 04:08 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Nah... we've got enough low end tq as it is, for a FWD. That's why I think twins might actually better serve our needs. Or maybe a jet turbine...
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Old October 17th, 2008, 06:17 PM   #60 (permalink)
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well, if we go small twins, we should actually pick up low-mid tq and mid-top HP... kinda the reason they did it with the GTR...

and with 3.8L+ displacement, we will be spooling the turbos instantly...
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Old October 17th, 2008, 11:24 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Yeah, but that's exactly it, we don't need any more low end torque, IMO. I haven't actually looked into the subject of turbos since ideally we do need more data on engine output. The engine work has to come first, the n proper determination of the turbo.

Of course in itman3s' case, I think that's a great combination - large-enough turbos that would spool up, say, at the 2500rpm mark (guess) and not mess any further with traction at low RPMs. I'm more interested at raising the sweet spot from 4500 to, say 5500, and have gradual power buildup apex at a higher RPM, and closer to redline.

Longer powerband FTW!

In fact, my original idea was to go with twin big16Gs, for simplicity and availability. Those are mid-sized turbos that would probably suit your goals, Carl
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Old October 18th, 2008, 02:01 AM   #62 (permalink)
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well, in reality, i would say that a GT25R on low boost would suit this motor perfectly... i mean on a tiny little 4g63 it takes forever to spool, but on 3.8-4.0L it would spool very quickly. and it flows massive CFMs at a lower PSI.

but for twins, i agree big 16g's. probably spool around 3200-3500. and a twin setup would hold boost easy to 6200rpms... the only help we need under 3k is getting tires to bite so you dont shatter solid urethane mounts.
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Old October 18th, 2008, 09:55 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Well with the 275 street Michelins I've got that wouldn't be much of a problem now, would it? Remember I've also got 305s that I can switch to the front for track days, if necessary

But seriously though, the main reason I would think MHI were the way to go would be for shorty manifolds, direct to turbo flange. Wouldn't be as gawdy, but it would definitely do the trick, and especially in maintaining the highest exhaust velocity possible to turbine. Though I'm afraid heat might be a major issue with such a design.
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Old October 18th, 2008, 12:20 PM   #64 (permalink)
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well, i just bought a set of 3s manifolds to test fit when i get home.

i know the gaskets cross over, just need to make sure the holes line up with ports right, and that sizes match.

then its just a matter of cut and rotate to fit.
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Old October 18th, 2008, 12:20 PM   #65 (permalink)
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first step is putting these heads on the car. the numbers still got me with a chubby.
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Old October 18th, 2008, 12:33 PM   #66 (permalink)
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well, i just bought a set of 3s manifolds to test fit when i get home.

i know the gaskets cross over, just need to make sure the holes line up with ports right, and that sizes match.

then its just a matter of cut and rotate to fit.
Good Luck, Horse!
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Old October 27th, 2008, 10:24 AM   #67 (permalink)
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bump for update and to say HAPPY BIRTHDAY itman
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Old October 27th, 2008, 11:07 AM   #68 (permalink)
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bump for update and to say HAPPY BIRTHDAY itman
Thanks illwill3..So far so good, i'm working on the intake mods and have test fitted the engine assembly in the engine bay..I'll post some pics later tis week..
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Old October 27th, 2008, 11:41 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Please do! that would be freaking sweet!!
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Old October 27th, 2008, 03:12 PM   #70 (permalink)
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FYI at work i have the pic of your piping as my background
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Old October 29th, 2008, 10:56 PM   #71 (permalink)
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the sight of that tt makes me feel warm and tingly in my pants
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Old October 30th, 2008, 08:20 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Hey Guys, the perfomance valve springs and titanium retainers are in !!! These things look great and let me tell you, the weight savings are awesome...The stock ex-spring weighed 41.8g and the Stock In-spring was 40.1g, The stock retainers were 10.0g..The New Springs are 39.0g an the titanium retainers are only 4.2g , this give us a total weight savings of 6.9g on the intake side and 8.6g on the exhaust side.. The new closed seat pressure is 100lbs (as i specified for my app) @ 1.730'' install hieght, vs the stock seat presssure of 59lbs-Intake and 51lbs exhaust @ 1.740'' install height..

Anyone interested in a set can give Zach Jones a call @ R/D springs corp. 760-948-4698..They are now stocked and ready to ship...I worked with him to desigh these springs and retainers..Here are the respective part number for either the Perfomance springs or the retainers or both.

Complete Spring/Titanium Retainer Kit # VSK 602-M
Spring Kit # 1091
Titanuim Retainer Kit # 2510

I'll try to get some pics up soon...

thanks
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Old October 30th, 2008, 12:38 PM   #73 (permalink)
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bump for awsomness
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Old October 30th, 2008, 07:35 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Price, price, price!!!
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Old November 18th, 2008, 12:50 AM   #75 (permalink)
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anyone have the price on these yet ?
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Old November 18th, 2008, 05:44 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Why don't you call em yourselves?
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Old November 18th, 2008, 09:12 AM   #77 (permalink)
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whats the word on this????
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Old November 19th, 2008, 06:22 PM   #78 (permalink)
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hey guys, not really sure what the pricing will be because i helped develope these parts and was the first to do the port work. Your best bet is to give these folks a call and discuss your options and pricing. Hobbs is very fair so i think you will be happy.
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Old November 19th, 2008, 06:46 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Any updates?
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Old November 19th, 2008, 07:28 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Any updates?
I had to put this on pause for a little, plus it is way to cold in the garage..hahah..i'm such a cry baby..LOL
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