400whp N/A Eclipse build?

[bullet06]

All right so before the majority start flaming I am thinking of building up my motor. I will be going for 400whp on a N/A motor. So I was wandering what most of you think it would take to get there?

I'm thinking rods an pistons (12:1)compression, delta cam regrinds, delta values springs an retainers, delta p&p, p&p lower intake some more.

So I was thinking maybe a custom intake manifold that can take a bigger throttle body maybe the ones for 350s. So that would mean I'd have to go with a stand alone right?

Do I need bigger injectors an fuel pump? Can anyone think of anything else or do any of you think this will get me to 400 or near?

I was going to go SC but if can get to 400 N/A then that's the way I want to take since I was only going for 450 SC.

Thanks for the help an criticism an I'm serious about all this.

[randman]

you can do that with head work plus what your already planning. I'm adding spray and will be adding an estimated 180 hp so total will be in the 470 range. I'm not changing my injectors. I'll be running a safe fuel cell to keep the pressure up when spraying. water meth to keep things cool. Titanium valves and a 3 stage progressive controller set at 50 100 50.
And the reliability of n/a with spray on tap for a mean DD.

[Chaos]

See Matt iam not crazy! lol 400 is possiable idk about with just heads cause really I'd depends what kinda gains we see when they are opened up

[bullet06]

Ya mine is staying DD. what compression you plan on running? I don't think I will be spraying at lest not planing to my down the road. So with the head work an intakes done you think that will take me to 400? what about stand alone will I need that or can I stick with the fic?

[Chaos]

My only reason for thinking standalone was the car may totally WTF which such a drastic compression change and the additional air and fuel needed to make that work,

[randman]

I'm not changing my compression from stock. Since I'm spraying it's more a top end build than low end. I'll be sure to give you the before and after bench flow numbers for the heads.

[TemplarRadix08GT]

Def possible just lot of cabbage. Custom head should put you up a lot. You can pretty much get close to 300 on bolt ons and a Canadian tune..
Reflash maybe for even more possible instead of fic..
Just make sure you're upgrading that clutch.. I'd do LSD too.

[randman]

Actually the head work isn't that much for what you get back pnp, 3 angle valve job is around 750. Custom valves and springs and retainers are the rest all in all around 1800- 2k. Lsd is a must have.

[nar nar]

I dont think its going to happen. I was just reading up on the highest whp NA 350z its 380 to the wheels lol its a track car nothing street about it. You need to boost for 400

[bullet06]

Ok what is a 3 angle valve job? I'm auto guys so no LSD.

[randman]

Originally Posted by bullet06

Ok what is a 3 angle valve job? I'm auto guys so no LSD.

it allows for a + 1mm oversize valves just widens up the valve seat.

[bullet06]

All right thanks randman. Didn't think you were crazy Clayton just trying to get every ones take on this. Real new to this part of tuning. I under stand the SCing better at this point since that is what I have been planing.

[randman]

No worries man at this point everyone is going in their own direction so alot of each others build won't benefit anothers. I'm more than happy to pass on what I'm learning cause its being taught to me at this stage.

[360jeepboy]

Originally Posted by randman

it allows for a + 1mm oversize valves just widens up the valve seat.

I'm going to stop you before you confuse people.

A 4angle valve job has nothing to do with putting in bigger valves. It simply means that the valve seat is cut at 4 different angles to allow the actual valve to contact the seat closer to the face of the valve, it also makes the contact patch smaller, or thinner. This allows for more air to enter the cyclinders because air flows around the head of the valve sooner then if the contact area was lower down, or father away from the valve face.

[360jeepboy]

I used 4angle, but a 3 angle is the same thing just 3 different angles.

[bullet06]

Ok I remember seeing this some where thanks jeep. So if I did the 4angle would I need a bigger valve or how mutch would it benefit?

[TwilsonD7]

I'm confused here. How are you going from 220hp(stock) to the wheels to 400 with just cams, p&p, valves, and stock compression with no NOS. Everyones telling me unless you go boost p&p is a complete waste of money and you'll see no kind of gains. NA can only suck in so much air. Cams dont show a whole lot of gains NA either. Oversized valves and new cams are doing the same thing but again not having air being forced It's just a waste. If you stay NA I'd just go larger valves, 10:1 compression and HUGE shot of NOS.

Full bolt on GT is About 300 to the wheels. Pistons and rods don't add Hp, p&p adds no Hp to a NA, cams very minimal Hp, oversized valves even less when done with the cams. I'd be interested to see what a 12:1 compression with a not so big shot. All that head work with cams and all will prob get you like absolute max 30hp for Over $3000

[BrianJ]

^^^????? Who told you that porting a head on an N/A motor wouldn't get you any power???

[bullet06]

I am full bolt on an I don't realy know a to mutch on this. That is why I am asking everyone what thay think. But this is not the first time brought up. Made this tread to help make my decision on if I will go N/A or SC. I do know more about SCing but I'd like to stay N/A. BUT Like I sead realy new to N/A beyond were I am.

[BrianJ]

I think you're going to have a HARD time getting to 400 on just motor...I guess that depends on where you are right now actually. I mean, even if you are at say, 280-290 on bolt ons, you still need to increase almost an additional 40%...that's ALOT. Not saying it couldn't be done...but I don't think at that point it would be very streetable as a DD...and highly doubtful it would be cost effective...just my $.02

[TwilsonD7]

Originally Posted by BrianJ

^^^????? Who told you that porting a head on an N/A motor wouldn't get you any power???

A whole lot of people and shops including delta whose trying to sell a p&p.

[TwilsonD7]

Where do you think a overbore 4.0 with larger valves and 12:1 cOmpression would be at? With full bolt on and tune?? How much power can compression add?

[bullet06]

Well this is what I want pros an cons. Also ideas on what I would need if I do go with this plan. Any info is mutch appreciated.

[BrianJ]

Originally Posted by TwilsonD7

A whole lot of people and shops including delta whose trying to sell a p&p.

I don't get it.

Granted, I come from a motorcycle background, but a motor is a motor. There's NOTHING different about a 4G motor over a motorcycle motor...other than the motorcycle motor is already an ultra-high performance motor to start with. We ALWAYS got great gains from porting heads...and we're talking about a total of about 3-4 inches from the back of the throttle plate to the back of the valves. Not much restriction there to begin with...but it always made great power.

I refuse to believe that a production car like the 4G has the PERFECT intake manifold and portwork from the factory...no way.

I'd really like to know the theory behind why people think that making the motor flow better is bad for power... I mean, that really what you're doing...making it flow better. Now, there is a point...if you take out WAY too much material you could cause some issues and possibly start losing power, especially in the lower end...but I'm not seeing the logic behind this. I mean it's been proven time and time again on every car known to man...

Doesn't make sense...unless of course the 4G was perfectly engineered from the start...which, yeah, we all know that ain't true...

[TwilsonD7]

They aren't perfect but from what I've been reading they are pretty damn nice and one of if not the best Mitsubishi has ever put out. Our heads are talked about no stopped on the 3000gt sites.

Whose next on the heads list. We need before and after dyno asap!

[TwilsonD7]

For the past 20 minutes I've searched about 6 different things to do with p&p and Hp gains and looked at about 20 sites and only 4 sites actually had number. All others didn't say and just had people flaming when someone suggested a number. But the conclusion I came up with was 8hp for $1000 on a NA car. Avenge gains on NA cams 5-10% and I Imagain larger valves even less. So $3000 plus removal, install, shipping, and downtime for roughly 20hp...

[BrianJ]

That's what I was saying earlier about it being cost prohibitive...BUT, that sounds REALLY low to me...on the motorcycles it wasn't anything to gain 15 HP from port work...and that was on a 1 liter motor that only put out 130hp to begin with...that's like a 12% gain...

I'm not a physics major though, so I don't know how this would work with bigger motors like ours...maybe there's something there that prohibits gains past a certain point or something...IDK man, I just find it extremely hard to believe that better flow = no/less power...

[Patayers73]

Originally Posted by randman

it allows for a + 1mm oversize valves just widens up the valve seat.

Actually you need to fly cut the seats for os valves. The purpose of a multiangle valve job is to reduce contact area between the valve & seat and give proper margin. You cut the seat w/ 30deg, 45deg & 60 degree stones. Pro head guys will often go w/ 5 angle. The multiple angles on the valve seat increase flow. Our heads will totally flow enough CFM to hit 400 all motor w/ os valves and a good port job. The problem is the tune, you'll have to run a stand alone. I doubt the FIC can handle it but I'll defer to Brian J on that. You'll need headers, full exhaust, CAI, injectors, fuel pump, custom rail w/ adjustable FPR, a bigger TB ect, ect. If you have a manual, you'll need at least a stage 4 clutch/ FW, LSD, & built tranny. At that point you'll probably need new axles, ours most likely would die a gruesome death. I plan to rebuild my gearbox & have the internals cryogenically treated. I shredded my 1-2 syncro & 2nd gear with just a stage 4 clutch/ FW. We could hit 400WHP but then the rest of the driveline would go tits up. The art of building cars is putting the power down reliably & consistently. Bolting shit to your ride is fine, but do your mods follow logic? Or are you just spinning your wheels? Can you stop & corner? What is the goal? Will you be able to jump in & drive 300 miles w/o an issue?

[Patayers73]

It's a repetitively proven fact that power lies in making your engine flow more efficiently. I've built some engines in my time. The biggest gains have always come from making the heads flow. Cam profiles are important too. Once you get the heads flowing you must get sufficient fuel and air to them. But the heads are the key. Now get your wallet out, pawn the xbox & steal granny's rainy day fund because you need a standalone & dyno time.

[Patayers73]

Twilson- check out hobb's port work & the flow bench #s. It's stickied somewhere under performance heads.

[BrianJ]

^^^ The FIC can handle it...it doesn't care how much HP it's running...all it cares about are the signals...and those don't change no matter what you do, N/A, TURBO, or SC...

[Patayers73]

Being a piggyback can the FIC & ecu deal w/ changes in compression? Would it throw a fit over a cam change? I'm more a wrench guy, I really need to learn more about the electronics side of the game.

[Patayers73]

As far as the cylinder head question: Flow + Velocity = Power

[randman]

Originally Posted by 360jeepboy

I'm going to stop you before you confuse people.

A 4angle valve job has nothing to do with putting in bigger valves. It simply means that the valve seat is cut at 4 different angles to allow the actual valve to contact the seat closer to the face of the valve, it also makes the contact patch smaller, or thinner. This allows for more air to enter the cyclinders because air flows around the head of the valve sooner then if the contact area was lower down, or father away from the valve face.

Thanks for explaining that further jeep I'm still learning all of this as well.

[majin]

This engine loves to breath, will be interesting to see what cams and a mild port job will do.

[randman]

Originally Posted by Patayers73

Actually you need to fly cut the seats for os valves. The purpose of a multiangle valve job is to reduce contact area between the valve & seat and give proper margin. You cut the seat w/ 30deg, 45deg & 60 degree stones. Pro head guys will often go w/ 5 angle. The multiple angles on the valve seat increase flow. Our heads will totally flow enough CFM to hit 400 all motor w/ os valves and a good port job. The problem is the tune, you'll have to run a stand alone. I doubt the FIC can handle it but I'll defer to Brian J on that. You'll need headers, full exhaust, CAI, injectors, fuel pump, custom rail w/ adjustable FPR, a bigger TB ect, ect. If you have a manual, you'll need at least a stage 4 clutch/ FW, LSD, & built tranny. At that point you'll probably need new axles, ours most likely would die a gruesome death. I plan to rebuild my gearbox & have the internals cryogenically treated. I shredded my 1-2 syncro & 2nd gear with just a stage 4 clutch/ FW. We could hit 400WHP but then the rest of the driveline would go tits up. The art of building cars is putting the power down reliably & consistently. Bolting shit to your ride is fine, but do your mods follow logic? Or are you just spinning your wheels? Can you stop & corner? What is the goal? Will you be able to jump in & drive 300 miles w/o an issue?

Are you referring to my build or the op's build? I've planned mine for over a year with a guy that's built plenty of legit race cars. I'm lucky he took me under his wing and is teaching me not only the how but why as well. I plan on having everything purchased and installed by september and I will be doing alot of the wrench work. Everything thing else is done suspension brakes clutch etc.

[bullet06]

So what dose everyone think of the non mivec heads. I hear thay have cams an stage to is like having are mivec but though all the power band. Thay have a stage three that is suppose to be better as well. I will be buying heads to send to delta so was wandering if anyone else has herd this or knows this.

[TwilsonD7]

They won't work. When it switches to mivec there will be no lobs. For that to be halfway doable you would have to disable the mivec cel. which I bet the ecu hates more then having new lobes.

Flow charts don't mean shit. I want before and after dynos.

[BrianJ]

Originally Posted by bullet06

So what dose everyone think of the non mivec heads. I hear thay have cams an stage to is like having are mivec but though all the power band. Thay have a stage three that is suppose to be better as well. I will be buying heads to send to delta so was wandering if anyone else has herd this or knows this.

The only way that would work with our ECU is to remove the mivec solenoids and make the ECU think they are still there...

If you don't, it WILL go into limp mode as soon as you hit 4k and it will shut you down...believe me, I know. We dealt with this when we built the mivec controller...

With that being said, I can build you a circuit that will allow this to work for you. Basically, it will cut the mivec solenoids out of the equation, but it will allow the ECU to think they are still there so that it operates normally and doesn't code or go limp because the solenoids are no longer there.

So, yes, it's possible if you want to go that route...

[TwilsonD7]

Would the lobs match up? A lot of homework needs to go into that and those cams are all the way in Australia...you prob have to either buy a set for like $1400'shipped or send a mice set to them and verify...You would have rough idle and cruising and worse gas milage.

What sensor would tell the ecu we don't like these lobe changes? What code shows up?